Normal 40: The Podcast (Transcript)
Lon: [00:00:00] Hi, this is Lon Stroschein and congratulations on finding the Normal 40 podcast. If you found me, well, it wasn't by accident. This just might be the first day of the rest of your life. And I'd be honored if you join me on my journey. Or better let me join you on yours. Dude, if you're here, then it's clear we're going to be good for one another. And let's face it, the price is right for both of us. I'm going to see you on the next page boss.
Adam: [00:00:37] Hi, my name is Adam and welcome back to the Normal 40 podcast. This is a place where we help at least 1000 people live their second half story. My name is Adam. I'm one of your co-pilots. And I'm joined today by the pilot, by the dude, a person that you need to know. His name is Lon Stroschein. He's the founder of Normal 40. Lon, thanks for joining again on another episode of the Normal 40 podcast.
Lon: [00:01:02] Hey, Adam, thanks for putting this together, boss. I'm glad to be back.
Adam: [00:01:07] Well, let's dive in. I think for me, one of the things that resonate with your content, and I think the thing that resonates with a lot of people is as I read your stuff every day on LinkedIn and Lon's a great follow if you're not following him already on LinkedIn. And I see themes develop in my own head. I see themes, I hear themes in your writing. And what I want to do today is kind of deep dive on some of those themes because here's what my reality is, Lon. And I want you to affirm this for me or tell me I'm crazy.
[00:01:35] My suspicion is, if I'm feeling these things, I bet you there are other dudes out there that are feeling them, too. And I think this is the perfect forum for us to have some of those deep-dive conversations about what those themes are and what those feelings are, and dude, listen, we get it. Talking about feelings is not going to be easy. It's not something men are traditionally wired to do really well. So this is going to be a stretch for Lon and I, but I think it's an important conversation topic to have, and I think that there are certain themes that really resonate, Lon. And today, I want to talk about guilt and I want to talk about the concept of guilt as it relates to the normal 40 movement. Because let's face the reality here. People are making tough decisions. You talked a lot through your content about making the trade. People are going to make the trade. And as with any trade in life, with sports, with whatever trades are not easy. Their transactions, something's coming in and something's going out. But there are a lot of other elements that come with it, and I think feelings are one of them, Lon. I think guilt is a big part of that. So I want to explore the concept more in-depth with you today and understand kind of how you see guilt in terms of normal 40. How you've dealt with it and just what it overall means, man? So, let me just start there for you. How do you define guilt? I think it's an interesting word. Everyone says I feel guilty about this. I feel guilty about that and the construct of what you see and what you've experienced at normal 40, What really is guilt?
Lon: [00:03:02] Yeah, that's a great question. And yeah, when we decided to do a podcast, I didn't realize that dudes and feelings were going to be we were just going to get right there. I can't imagine that this is going to be a chartbuster here because dudes love to talk about feelings. And the fact of the matter is, we don't want to talk about our feelings. Are you kidding me? I mean, the fact that you found me a dude from the Internet and you're listening to this podcast is the result of the fact that you really don't want to tell anyone how you're feeling. That is it. I mean, let's face it, that is probably one of the biggest reasons why you're here. You don't really want to have a conversation with someone about how you are feeling. And let me tell you, I named the entire company Normal 40 because it is normal. Nobody's talking about it, including you. You got your earbuds in, you got my voice in your head. You've read a few things that I've put out there, and it's resonating with you and you haven't told anyone about it. Half the dudes I talk to haven't even told their wife. And if they have, they've hinted around about some of this and some of that. And, you know, I'm not as happy at work as I used to be. Usually, dads just come home and act pissed off about how their day was and that they're stressed, and then so-and-so did such and such again and that they've got to put up with it, but they're going to, and that's what they're going to do. And that’s how a dude talks about feelings.
[00:04:34] But when I get on the phone with him and we have conversations, we go on what I call a “ramble,” and we just start moving around. Feelings come up, man. Feelings come up. And I know I experienced them and I've gotten pretty good at understanding what it is, they're feeling, what the process is. Maybe not in their words, but from a foundational gut understanding. I can relate to what it is they're feeling. And so that's kind of where we're starting here. And you brought one up, you know. And I've got a list of probably 20. 20 different things, consistent words that come up that we can dive into if we need to. But guilt is one of them. And guilt is interesting because you feel guilt from a number of different places. The first one people tend to associate guilt with is I've got a good job. I'm making good money. I kind of like my boss. I work for a good company. They've been good to me. They've promoted me. They've given me opportunities, and they've given me a chance to be who I am. I would feel guilty leaving. Why would I? Why do I? Why do I want to leave? What about me? Isn't happy here? Why can't I be happy here?
[00:05:57] And so you sit there and you wrestle with all these things. But at the same time, the reason you're asking yourself that is because the primary question is begging it. You first said, well, is this it? You know, is this. And we talked about this before. Is this it? That's the first thing that comes to mind. Is this it? Then you go through and you realize that one of the reasons you're not prepared to take an action is because you feel kind of guilty. You feel guilty for what feels like you might be abandoning the company that took a risk on you, abandoning the team you created, and walking out on the projects that are going to take a lot of effort. And you feel guilt. You feel guilt for wanting something else. And so what do you do? You put it back in the lockbox, you come home, act a little pissed off because that's how your wife knows that. You communicate about how your day was and you show up again tomorrow the same way you did today.
Adam: [00:06:59] Well, then I guess that begs the question, is guilt? Is it a good thing? Is it bad? It sounds like in this construct, what you're saying is that people think it's bad. It's bad to have guilt. It's bad to feel guilty about it. So they'd rather themselves internally feel bad than make others feel bad. And that's such an interesting concept to say, you know, I think for a lot of people, particularly a lot of men in leadership roles, you sort of get used to that. Like, "I'll take the bullet for my team". I'll be the one. I'll be the one who takes the brunt of the boss coming down on us. So is that where you think the guilt is formed and just to protect and a need to feel like you're still in charge, is it? It almost feels like maybe you think you're giving up some of that leadership ability if you kind of acquiesces to that guilt.
Lon: [00:07:50] You know, guilt cuts both ways. I think it's good to feel guilty to a certain extent. You should feel an obligation to your team. I think that makes you a good leader. You should feel guilty about potentially leaving before projects are done, which makes you a good leader. You can feel guilty about separating from a boss you like, and a company you love, and a mission that the company carries forward. That's impressive. That's a good place to dwell on feeling guilty about leaving. But the other side of guilt is if you stay around because of that and you at the same time also feel guilt for not pursuing a dream, not pursuing what you know is inside of you. Not even exploring what it is and naming what it is you might want to pursue. That, too, leads to guilt. That, too, leads to the guilt of regret of staying an extra year too long or two or five or ten where you get- Look …
I'm 48. When I was 44, I started feeling this and I left the company when I was 47. And I would have felt guilty leaving when I was 44 for all the reasons we discussed. But eventually, it got to the point where I would have felt guilty staying because I would have been staying for the wrong reasons. And I'd have felt guilty believing and knowing that the best years of my life I know are in front of me. The impact I'm going to have on this world is still the years that are coming down the road.
[00:09:42] I might not know what they look like yet had I stayed. I'd have felt guilty about not exploring that. And there's that side of guilt that you kind of feel, and you can wear both sets of guilt at the same time. You can have the guilt of if I leave, I feel guilty about my team, my boss, my company, and you can have the guilt of if I stay, I'll never know if this was my time. I'll never know if I was wired to do this. And both of them can lead to regret. So it's not a throwaway term. It's not something you can't wrestle with. You have to. You have to acknowledge when you feel guilty and then you have to understand what you feel guilty about.
So many of my life's biggest decisions I've answered by asking myself one question: “Would I regret it if I didn't?” Whatever it is, whatever it is, every major decision that led me to this podcast, where I'm sitting today, in this house with my family, with the work experience I've had, has been put together based on the premise of that question. “Would I regret it if I don't?”
And for me, when I decided to leave my company when I didn't need to, and I had an offer to stay that was tremendous with a company I admired, doing things that I'm wired to love. I ask the question; would I regret it if I didn't? Would I regret it if I didn't give normal 40 a shot? Would I regret it if I didn't see what I'm made of?
[00:11:24] And my answer was, yeah, I would. I would be sitting at that desk with that team, with that group of team members and that mission. And I would be wondering and I would feel guilty about not giving it a try. And that's how I rationed it out. I would regret it if I didn't.
But I was starting to wear both senses of guilt at the same time. And it's important to know where your guilt is coming from. So that you know if it's how it's rooting for you.
Ultimately, guilt is pulling you in a direction, that is what guilt is – it’s an emotion that pushes and pulls. Guilt is an attraction or detraction. It's an emotion you didn't fake or manufacture. It's an attraction that’s not conscious. It's guilt. If it was conscious, it would be a decision. It's unconscious, so you're feeling it. So when you feel it, you need to understand it. It's a feeling. I think we talked about this “dudes and feelings.” We don't even know how to rationalize them for ourselves, let alone communicate about them. But when you're feeling guilt, the next time you're sitting at your desk and you're feeling guilt, the next time you're thinking about doing something that isn't in your company or it's with a different company, or it's a different job in your same company, and you're feeling guilt, study it. Be curious about it, think about it, and put a name on it - because it is part of the pull, and you need to address it.
Adam: [00:12:59] I think what's interesting about Guilt, too, is the reaction. I'm curious the reaction that you got from people when you started to share kind of your journey. And I'll tell you a quick story about my own journey at one time. So I'm working at a company. I have a great role and I have a fantastic team, just a great group of people who work with me and we have a lot of fun. We had some great results and things were going great, but I felt and I knew that I had to make a change for some other reasons. And so I slowly started to make those changes. And, lo and behold, another opportunity came my way. And I said, “Man, I've got to take this opportunity.” I went home and I told my wife great news: “Honey. I've got it. I've got that opportunity. This is going to be fantastic.” And she said, “Great, why don't you look happy?”
And I said, I don't know how I'm going to tell my team. And she said, Well, they'll understand. And I said you don't know. You don't understand my team. We're really close. Like we've got this. And I agonized over that for an entire weekend. And there are a few folks on the team that I knew were also in an interesting spot. And, you know, everyone always says, if you ever leave, I'm going to leave the company, too. But I don't know how real some of that stuff is, but there are a few folks in my team that I felt like this was going to change their world upside down.
[00:14:11] And I went to that first meeting with a member of my team, and I sat down and I told her I was leaving. And, you know, there were some some hurt feelings initially. There were some shock. And then she said to me, “I'm so proud of you.” And it took me off guard. It took me kind of by surprise. And I said, “Well, what do you mean?” And she said that you made a decision to do something. You put your mind to it and you did it. And she said, “Not only am I not mad at you, I'm inspired by that. I'm inspired that that's something I can do.”
I found in that moment the angst I felt, the guilt I felt was my own interpretation of how I thought people would feel. It wasn't what they really felt. And I think when you sit down and you talk to people who are close to you and you tell them what you're going through, you recognize that, that guilt is all internalized. It's not a real feeling like you said, it's not a feeling that other people feel on the other side. Everyone was happy. And I'm curious, when you made your decision, when you kind of told your team, what kind of reactions have you gotten from people in scenarios that you thought you were having guilt in and kind of how they absorbed that same situation, that same emotion?
Lon: [00:15:20] Well, Adam, you nailed it, man. You just. You did. And let's just go back to what a wonderful team is. And if you're the type of leader who has created a team like that or you're the type of leader who is part of a team like that, and it's more than just mission and it's more than just, hey, here's the deadline, let's crush it… And it's more than hustle. This word I've come to just kind of despise. And it's friendship. It's compassion. It's rooting for people on your team for the team's sake and for the individual sake. But in that order, if that is really what you've got, guess how they're going to react, whether you're on the team and you're telling your boss or you're the team leader and you're telling your team they're going to be excited if you are, especially if you are “on mission.”
We probably could make an episode about this. Being on mission. This example you just shared with me. And just to remind everyone, Adam and I barely know one another. This is the third time we've ever talked. And so I don't know this team you're talking about, but the point was, you came into that conversation. You'd had the conversation with your wife, you'd make the decision, and you felt like you were on mission. And when you're on mission and you tell people what you're going to go do. And why you're going to go do it. And they can get the sense that you're on mission. They're proud. They're happy. And they're kind of jealous. They're jealous that you have gotten on a mission. Not bad jealous, but jealous like [].
[00:17:12] So understanding when people are on mission and I don't want to take this down a bad path. But it's such an important point. It is such an important point. Sometimes your spouse is on a mission and you're not. When that's the case, you approach what they're doing with Business Head. Which isn't mission. What you do for your job all day isn't mission. That's job. When your spouse is on mission and- Look, I'm a dude, I'm going to talk like you're a dude - and your wife is on mission and she wants to go start a small business that … does baked goods at practically break even for nonprofits so that they can resell them and make money for their charity. And you come on, it's like, well, why would you even do that? That is a bad use of time. Why don't you just sell them and give them your money? Why don't you wholesale them? We'll take them to the bakery and we'll mark them up and you can pocket that money or give it away? Why are you spending your time doing that?
My whole point is this. When your spouse is on mission, support it. When you are not on mission and you're trying to figure out theirs, don't roadblock it.
[00:18:42] And the next time that comes up in your household and your spouse is on a mission and you're not. And by the way, women are better about mission than dudes. I'm here to tell you. Just appreciate that. Don't get in the way of somebody on mission. Long story short, she identified you were on mission, and she was proud.
When I left Raven, even though I didn't even know what my mission was yet, I knew where it was not anymore - because my work there was done - People were thrilled. Thrilled, I mean, not just like, Yeah, I can see that. Good luck, dog. I mean, oh, my gosh, that is so awesome. You are going to change lives. You are wired to help people in this way. You are going to be living all of your strengths. How can I help you? Can we meet every month and talk about it? I mean, you just name it when they could sense I was on mission and I knew what I wanted to do about it. Maybe for the first time in my whole life. Think about that. They just want to be part of it.
Adam: [00:19:48] Well, you mentioned something and I want to dive into this topic. So the work guilt and the team and the camaraderie, guilt is one thing. But you mentioned family Lon and family guilt can be a whole separate animal. Because, you know, you've got maybe you've got kids, you know, they're in schools. You know, maybe you're new on mission as you've as you phrased it, requires you to move someplace, do something different. You know, it's going to upheave other individuals' lives. You know, from a work perspective, you care about your team, but you go home every night to your family. You go home every night to your close circle. When the guilt is about those people, that feels like a completely different kind of guilt. How do you reconcile the difference between the two and how much is the family guilt? Harder? Is it more complex? How do you approach the family side of the guilt element?
Lon: [00:20:40] Hopefully the same way. But usually not. I ask a question to dudes when we talk on the phone or even by email, when we start the conversation, usually at some point early in the conversation … So this is a warning to anybody I talk to in the future … I ask: “How does your wife feel about this?” And I can tell by body language if they know. And so I'll say, have you talked to her or him? And usually it's some sort of sheepish, “Well, they know. I mean, they know.” And then I follow it up with this: “What does your wife want for you?” And they'd lean back in their chair and they kind of give this far-off stare. And they're kind of embarrassed. Because they don't know, and if they do answer, they answer this question: “What is your wife want from you?”
They think that's what I'm asking. , No, that’s not the question. I don't belong in that conversation - what your wife wants from you. I do belong in the conversation of understanding if you know what your wife wants for you. Because if you know that and she knows that, that means you've talked about it. That means there isn't an element of surprise. That means that you've had the vulnerability of actually telling your wife how you feel about something and when she knows that. Now you have a team again. It goes back to the same thing when she knows you are off mission. And by the way, when you just come home grumpy, she's not interpreting. Oh, he's off mission today. She's like, Oh, he had another shit day. I wonder why he does this. But when you say, Look, I'm going through something here and we're not in a problem state. I'm not leaving anybody in a lurch. But I've got to figure this out. I got to figure out how I'm feeling. This there's dude on this Internet who's talking to me, and it's got me thinking. And if you can have those conversations with your wife. And let her into the fact that you don't feel great. You have questions about what you're doing. Then when you start saying things like, Hey, I think I want to do this and here's an opportunity that I want to consider. Then you can have conversations like that. What you're doing is you're removing the element of attack. You're removing the element of surprise and you're allowing a conversation to have. So that you're on mission together. And that is so, so important. So that's one. And there's another really important point I want to make here. And that is, you know, let's assume that you're 45 and let's assume you started your career trajectory at age 25. So you're 20 years in. You're quintessentially right, right in the middle of your normal 40. And you're starting to feel the way you, whoever is listening, are feeling or you wouldn't be listening to this. You've got these feelings. And at some point, I would ask you the question, what does your wife want for you? You'll answer the question, what does my wife want from me? And this is usually what the answer I get. I get some form of, well, we've got a lifestyle. We've got kids who are about ready to go to college. We got this house, we got things, you know, we got this lifestyle. My wife used to work and now she doesn't anymore. She gets to stay home with the kids. That's really important to her. And so I don't want to bring home my problems to her and tell her how I'm feeling. I don't want to worry her. I don't want to do that. So my job is just to provide. I need to stay strong. I need to keep showing up. Showing up at work. I need to keep putting in the hours. I need to keep doing the travel. I'm the provider. That's the agreement and that's how dudes think.
[00:24:36] And I let the conversation go quiet for a second. And I say, when was the last time you updated that contract? Because what you just told me is your wife wants to stay home and she expects you to work, and that's the contract you're operating under. When was the last time you talked to her about that? When was it? Are you telling me that your wife would rather have you doing a job you hate for a company you don't think you want to work for any longer. Sitting on airplanes that you loathe. Because she has a lifestyle that she appreciates. You think she'd rather have you doing that than having you home on a Friday with a smile on your face? If that's the contract you really have, then you don't need me. You need a marriage counselor. But my guess is you just haven't bothered to talk about it. My guess is you're operating under the contract you signed 20 years ago when you were 25, and your job was to climb, climb, climb, grow, grow, grow, grind, grind, grind. And that's still the contract you're operating under. My advice to you is take a look at the contract. And that is just a conversation. But that is a dude showing up, talking about feelings with his spouse.
Adam: [00:25:52] Well, that's not going to be easy. As you said off the top, I mean, that certainly is a bit of a challenge. What strategies would you know. Because there is someone in their car right now listening to this and they're thinking about going home and talking about the contract. And they're going to rip that thing up. They're going to put it in the shredder. But it sounds like that's a pretty delicate conversation to have. And there are some things that, you know. Look, I think for dudes, one of the other items is we always want to have the answers. So if you go to your significant other, you go to your spouse and you say, hey, I'm just not happy here. And she says to you, well, what are you going to do? And you say, Well, I don't know. Like it feels like you don't have everything figured out. I think you're wired sometimes. I always have the answer. I always know what the next step is. And I think for some people, it's hard to admit I don't know what that next step is. I actually don't know what that next journey looks like. But I mean, there are dudes in the car right now saying there's no way I'm going home and ripping up that contract. There's no way my wife's going to let me get away with that. That's not even possible. What's the other way? There's got to be another way than that.
Lon: [00:26:53] Yeah, there is. And it's going to end up in a disaster. I mean, it's going to end up in a surprise. And then you've got to navigate that in your relationship, a surprise when you just all of a sudden one day had it, you had it. And chances are it's going to come or you're going to get to the age when you've grounded out. Like I said, you're 45, you're 20 years in you last another ten years and you retire and all that misery and all that separated time from your spouse. It comes home to roost. You're going to deal with this. You are going to deal with this. Whether you do it on your watch through vulnerability or on somebody else's watch through a forced conversation. It's going to get dealt with. So that would be number one, just the conversations coming. Yeah, you can delay it ten years and it'll be a slightly different conversation, but you will have lost ten years. Think about that. You'll have lost ten years. So, you said something so important and it's so true. I know when my wife comes home and she talks to me about stuff going on at work and she's a kindergarten teacher. I am immediately- before she's done. I'm solving it. I can. And it starts in my gut. It starts in my gut. She's not even done telling me her story. And I'm ready to call someone. I'm ready to react. I'm ready to give her all the advice that she doesn't want, by the way. She just tell me a story. She doesn't want my advice. But I'm so wired to be like, we're going to fix this. That's not right. This is injustice, blah, blah, blah. And by the way, chances are there, again, if you're listening to this, you're wired the same way. We're problem solvers. We're fixers. That's what we do. Let's solve this and be done.
[00:28:42] What if that isn't your job here? This conversation isn't to be fixed. It's not going to happen in a conversation. Your job is to build the team. If you really want to do it well. The best I've seen it done. The advice I've given is this. Sit down and just tell them I'm having a hard time at work. I don't feel the way I used to. If you just do that. All she's going to do is ask questions and it's going to be this conversation. But you can go further. You can go further. If the conversation is going, you know, it's not really going anywhere. In the same conversation or next week, come back to it again and say, look, what do you need more of from me? And that is going to give her permission to answer that question. And guess what? There's going to be a conversation, and that conversation is going to be perfectly set up for you to say, Yeah, I know. But part of the reason why that happens is X, Y and Z, and that's work related. And it's another way to kind of get into that conversation. Now, you need to be prepared. What you're going to hear when you say, what do you need more of from me? Because you're going to get it. It'll be well rehearsed. But it's another way of just creating that team environment to say, hey, look, let's process this.
Adam: [00:30:20] All right. So let's continue with the phases of guilt. So we've talked to the team. You've kind of understood that. You've crossed this threshold now. You've went and told somebody important in your life, maybe that's your wife, your parents, or your best friend or whatever you've told that important person. You've made the trade. You're ready to go. You go all in and you start this next venture. You don't know where you're going. You don't know how you're getting there. And there are people listening to this right now that are on that journey. They've made that trade, they've made that decision, they've had that tough conversation, and their compass is pointed north and they're ready to go and they start trying some things out and nothing's working. That opportunity they thought was going to happen didn't happen. The idea they had didn't really materialize.
[00:31:00] So now the new guilt sets in. Did I make a mistake? I had everything. I had it all. I had the house, the car, the boat. I had the weekends in Tahoe, whatever that is to you. You talk about a lifestyle, whatever that means to whoever is listening. I had it all and I gave it away. Have I made a mistake? Now you've got the guilt about making the decision after you've made the decision. And what I'm getting at here Lon is I feel like there's three different types of guilt, but they all manifest differently and they all need to be sort of attacked and understood and harness it differently. So take us to the point you made the trade, you made the move. You said, all right, I've crossed this threshold. I told my wife, I told my team, I'm on my journey. And I imagine there is a day that you sat back and said, is this even going to work? What have I done? What is that guilt like? And how do you understand that once it appears in your journey?
Lon: [00:31:58] That's tough guilt, man. If you get to that point and it's possible, you know, it's that I would say this, the chances of you having a dream at this point in your life. Putting together a plan, testing it. And then setting out to go achieve it. The chance of that failing in the purest sense where income has gone to zero. You know, the bills aren't getting paid. The chances of that a shockingly low. Now, that's where our minds are going to dwell. That is where our minds are going to dwell. Because guess what? We're problem solvers and risk avoiders. By the time you get to this point in your life, it's like, Wow, I've built my whole life to this point. I don't want to risk losing it. I don't want to risk. Look, I've got to get the image. I'm giving that up. I've got to pay. I'm giving that up. Oh, man. I don't want to risk. I don't want to risk that. And then if it's not successful, then what? Then I've got an image thing. I made a mistake. I look like a fool. And there are two things that dudes want to avoid. They want to look. They want to avoid looking stupid. And even more, they want to avoid being a fool. And those two things will keep fools in a fool's way. Those two things will keep you right in your desk. Doing things that, you know, aren't the things you really want to be doing. So, there is that. But let's start from reality. The chances of total failure, where you can't even go back and get a job, you can't. It's minuscule. It is minuscule. But it's possible. I would never say it's not. There would probably be people who are listening, who feel like they fell flat. It is possible. But I go back to this. Would you? You don't get to know that until it's happened. So you still make the decision to do this using the same exact question. Would I regret it if I don't? And after you feel you've fallen flat and you've had this year where it's just been tough and you decide to go back and get a job and you just get started to claw back up or it just happened slower. The growth happened slower than you thought. I still say.
[00:34:26] And let's take me. This is me, man. I walked away from, I'm going to make fraction. I'm hoping to make double digit fractions of what I made last year. I'm making pennies on the dollar. There's no guarantee for me. But I'm going forward. But here's what I anchor to, even if this fails, even if I'm the guy who's in a year, got to going to go back and get back into, getting to the grind. I will never pass through this universe and say I wish I had tried. And the other thing, is I know I will never pass through this universe saying Dang it, I wish I wouldn't have chased my dream. It's impossible. You might not get it yet. It might not be the homerun you thought, but holy cow, put a price tag on that knowing you tried, put a price tag on it. Put and I'm serious. What is that worth at the end of your life to be able to say, son of a bitch, I gave it a try that has a dollar and sense value to it. And the other thing is you will never regret. You will never, even if it fails and you got to go back and you're 45, you'll never turn 70 and say, if I only wouldn't have followed my dreams. Children, here's a lesson to you. Don't have dreams and don't follow them. Oh, come on. You did the right thing. You took the bet, and you'll never regret it.
Adam: [00:36:00] Yeah. I want to talk about children for a second because you brought that up. And again, relationships are hard with adults, right? And talking to adults can be hard. Talking to kids is a whole different story. I imagine you're in their car right now. You're going to make this trade. You've gung ho and you go home and you look that sweet, eight, seven, six year old boy or girl of yours in the face. And you tell them daddy's going to make a change everybody. They don't understand it at the level that we understand it at. They understand at the level of, well, does that mean I won't be able to play with so-and-so? Does that mean that we have to go here. That transaction, that guilt when it comes to a child who I think most people look at their children as almost like innocence in some respects right there, they're the breakaway from the reality that you face kind of day in and day out, the guilt feeling that you may get from your child, even though they may not express it, but you feel it for them. And that's a different kind of guilt. And that's a powerful kind of guilt that, I'd be curious, when you've experienced that or have you, as you've seen that in your time with normal 40, what is that? What are the feels of that? And how does someone sort of break through the guilt of looking at their eight year old in the face and telling them something that you know they don't understand. And probably won't understand for ten years. fifteen, twenty. I mean, who even knows at that point?
Lon: [00:37:21] Yeah. So the guilt, your kids won't have any guilt. And that's not your question. The guilt. The question is, what do you as the individual making this change, what kind of guilt do you feel for your kids? And, you know, I thought a lot about that like you do. I mean, dads do. Moms do. When you're going through this, you think a lot about what is this, what are the implications of the family? And that's really the question. What changes are they going to see? And I had an eight year old when I resigned. So I know you just do that out there as an example, but I had an eight year old and so I had a fourth grader, I had a sophomore and I had a senior in high school. Those were the ages of my kids when I resigned. And they all took something different from it. My daughter, my kids didn't know me as not liking work. They just knew I worked a lot. And so that was that.
[00:38:19] In fact, my older son when I was 35 and he was five, my wife would drop me off at the airport. I'd go traveling internationally. She dropped me off on a Sunday and I'd come back on a Friday or a Saturday and they'd come back to the airport and pick me up. And in preschool, he told his teacher that I worked at the airport. And so teacher, teacher asked my wife, hey, does your husband work at the airport? And she's like, No, why? Why would you say that? Said, well, your son said he worked at the airport and then it dawned on her, my son saw me dropped off at the airport and then picked up six days later from the airport. I was just in that building the whole week, but in reality I was you know, that wasn't the case. My whole point is, depending on where they're at in life, they experience it completely differently way. My senior saw me as they're again going back to team and communicating. I'd been telling my family, hey look, this is something I got somebody wanted to hire me on the side to help them do some coaching, help do some transition work. And they could see I loved it and they would ask me about it and we would talk about it. And they knew I had a logo. I mean that when you have your own logo, that's something that the family can talk about. It provides, it removes the surprise. That was my tact and it worked pretty well.
[00:39:44] So what did my senior take away from it. You don't have to stay in a job you don't love. And by the way, I did love my job. But you don't have to stay anywhere longer than you think you should. You can make decisions through the course of your life to be in a place, to have the freedom to make change. My son, who at the time was a sophomore, saw that you could have dreams radically different than how you'd spent the last 20 years of your life. And you can go get them. You don't have to be 20 to do that. You can do that in your forties. And he talks to me all the time about how it's going. Where am I? He's into it. He's curious. He's a junior now. He wants to know, what is it going? What are you talking about? What are dudes going through? How does it work? And they see Dad taking a risk, doing it different. And I think I feel no guilt for that, even though I'm not as financially successful as I've been for the last ten years. I feel wonderful about the lessons.
[00:40:52] And then my eight year old, you know what he got. He translated it into more S-days, and for him he would always ask me, Dad, is tomorrow an S-day? And what he meant is, is tomorrow Saturday or Sunday, when I would tuck him in, and if it was Tuesday, I'd say, no, tomorrow's Wednesday. And if it was Thursday, nope, tomorrow's Friday. But he knew that on Saturday and Sunday there was a chance that I would have the energy and there was a chance I would be home to spend some time with him to play catch, to build a puzzle, whatever. Those were S-days. And to him, me being home became the chance at more S-days, and that's what he took out of it. And those are things that are the opposite of guilt. They're the opposite. Put a price tag on that. Put a price tag on it. I don't have one, but I know I don't have any regrets. I don't have any regrets. And I honestly, don't have any guilt over my decision and the changes we have had to make and are making with how we get to live based on cash flow.
Adam: [00:42:05] Let's wrap up with this. So somebody out there is listening to this and they haven't taken that step yet Lon. The guilt is still kind of seeping in a little bit. They are still a little unsure. Talk to them for a second. What do you want them to understand about guilt and what they need to do next as they think about whatever it is that they want to do, whatever step it is that they're comfortable taking.
Lon: [00:42:25] So a whole bunch. First, it's normal man. It's normal. There's like I said, I've got a whole list of emotions you're going to go through. And guilt is just one of them. Yeah, it's just one of them. It's a normal one. But know there's two sides of that guilt. There's the guilt of what if I do? And then there's the regret guilt of what if I don't? What if I don't? And be aware of it. Be aware of what's calling. Which of those is talking to you more. But don't let guilt be your roadblock, number one. Two, and along the same lines. Having some guilt about leaving is a good thing. It's healthy. It's a sign of care. It's a sign of good intention. It's a sign of decency and humility. I mean, it's not a bad thing. And I would say three, what I would want them to know about guilt is that, it goes away. It goes away. When you are on mission. And that's the hard part, is feeling that energy of being on mission, your guilt. What do you have anymore to be guilty about? I'm a dude on mission. I'm a dude on mission. My mission is to help 1000 dudes write their second half story. That is what my mission is. That's it. I don't have any guilt for and I don't have any apologies to anyone for that being my mission. And in fact, it is laced with freedom. And think about that when you're on mission and you know it and you don't have guilt about not having a project done, not having a memo written, not meeting a deadline, not hitting a number. And you're in control of your calendar and you know who it is you need to help and you're on mission. What do you have to feel guilty about? That's the thing. The guilt you have goes away the moment you discover how to get on mission.
[00:44:40] Let me say that differently, please. It goes away the moment you know what your mission needs to be. And that's the place to start. Do not. Here's the biggest killer of people preventing them from getting on mission. I promise you. I see it every single day. It was mine. You start with how? Because we're problem solvers. Dude, don't start with how. How will kick the [can] fricking far down the road, you won't even see it anymore. Start with what? What do I want? What is talking to me? What am I feeling? Who am I here to help? What are my skills to help them do that? What fills me up? That's what you focus on. And once you know mission. I knew my mission was to help 1000 dudes write their second half story before I knew I was going to have a podcast. Are you kidding me? Before I knew I was going to write about it on LinkedIn, I knew it. Those just became the house. That's just intuition. That's just common sense. At some point, you have to show up for the what to get on mission, and once you do the hows, answer themselves. But if you start with how? If I started with I don't know how many up a thousand dudes, man. Who's going to show up for me. How am I going to pay those bills? Who's going to pay me to help them get clarity? If I would have started with those questions, I would have never started. I would still be sitting at the company I work for, and that's a fact.
Adam: [00:46:10] That's a powerful, powerful statement Lon. Thanks for sharing that. Where can people find out more about Normal 40, for those who want to learn more and be more involved? Give us some plugs here. Where can they find more?
Lon: [00:46:21] Well, hopefully, thanks to you, Adam. You can continue to find us here as their podcast continues to grow. So subscribe. Here's a shameless plug there. It really does help us. So please do that. Two I really only show up to other places with any consistency and in the right order would just be at LinkedIn and you can follow me personally. That's where I show up most often. Or you can follow the Normal 40 business page. I show up there a lot too. And then within LinkedIn you can join a free but closed group where you come in. There's a link out there. You click on it and you can have access. You request access to get in. We will let you in. And then you have access to just a group of people who are right where you are and nobody else on LinkedIn can see them. You've got to be in the group to know who else is in the group. You've got to be in the group to see anything that's ever posted, liked, commented on in the group. It's private and it's controlled. And I own that. And you can find more there. And then the last one is just normal40.com. And there's going to be more and more that we're putting on to that site as it relates to some subscription things, mailing letters, some things that are exclusive coming in time. But those are the three places I show up, man.
Adam: [00:47:44] Well, we thank you for showing up and make sure you keep showing up because we're going to keep showing up. For Lon, my name is Adam and this has been normal 40, the podcast.
